Wallet Wasabi
Replies: 46 comments 14 replies
|
I've spoken with @Kixunil about this at length - forgot what exactly the resolution was... |
|
If it is a person to create the package in the acceptable format, I'd be glad to help. I see this as a big impediment to tying the safest wallet with the safest OS. This is a necessary and huge step in proper automation of the solution for the masses. We need to work together toward this goal. |
|
Not exactly. It turns out that the Wasabi deb package is not in the Debian repos. Therefore, it is of no value to Tails. We must make it available in the official repo for each new version of Debian moving forward. Currently, it is Buster or version 10. |
|
Should I go ahead and try to get the .deb version accepted? All I'd have to do is find a Debian sponsor and I believe we'd be good to go. |
|
@KitchM I'm working on a whole repository of Bitcoin-related Debian packages, however it's not official yet. Wasabi is not there yet, but something I definitely want to do. Unfortunately, some strict Debian policies seem to conflict with the design goals of Wasabi, more specifically, to my knowledge Wasabi bundles dependencies (stability is important for Wasabi) and Debian requires packaging the dependencies individually. So the answer is: don't expect it any time soon. I'm not familiar with Tails (I prefer Whonix, which seems to have picked more reasonable trade offs), is adding a new repository an option for you? My project is not that strict about dependencies and I could package Wasabi relatively quickly. However, my project has other policies that might make it harder or inconvenient for you (everything strictly connects to your full node). If you're interested in helping me, please open an issue at my repo and I'll instruct you. Related: #1673 - it has to be resolved in order for the package to be accepted by either Debian or my project. Anyway, I agree with the general idea fully - if I didn't, I wouldn't have spent months working on packaging Bitcoin stuff. :) |
|
Thanks, Kixunil, I appreciate the thoughts. You wrote:
I do not understand the significance nor the lack of certainty. Maybe it doesn't matter, but there is help for that with the sponsor method Debian offers. Also, unlike Whonix, Qubes or others, Tails is for portable use. This is exactly what is needed for quick, anonymous transactions. It is booted from flash drive and, if lost, nothing can be retrieved without the passphrases. Completely safe, secure and private. It is the only option of its type in the world right now. Tails only uses Tor and any connection it can find to the 'Net. It is the ideal platform for Wasabi. With that said, the problem is that Tails is based upon Debian, and the creator requires the use of only Debian repositories to take advantage of its ability to auto-install an app at login. This is big. Using a custom script is not only difficult, but fraught with problems to those unfamiliar with the inner workings of Tails. I do not want to fool with it, and I don't see the average user able to do it when they are less able than I. We are trying to get a system that will solve the problems of the average user, not the techie. And in this day and age, we need it more than ever. I totally appreciate and support your good efforts. Without people like you, the world would be in so much worse shape. Your work is commendable. Thanks. PS: Your link is bad. |
|
Well, this is not my top priority right now, but I definitely want to look into it deeper at some point. At least if nobody else does. Don't expect it any time soon. May be easily year or more. My current constraint is the ability to iterate quickly. Interestingly, github screwed up the link because of missing Off-topic part follows Don't want to turn this into a flame war, just want to point out some things you might have missed: Tails is made to forget information, yet almost everyone I know sets it up to keep information (encrypted) as your example also shows. I don't see how it's different from Whonix, which doesn't bother with forgetting (it's still encrypted!), but instead bothers with making separate virtual machines to prevent leaks even if the VM is compromised. This is something remarkable and much more useful from my point of view. Of course, feel free to use whatever you like. Also something to keep in mind: if you download the same applications on login it could be used to fingerprint you (with some timing attacks). That's a summary of my viewpoint, for more we should move somewhere else. |
|
No worries, Good Buddy. It may very well be my mistake for not being clear in some way. Tails is portable. I would think that it would be difficult to create the same setup for Whonix. Would it even be possible to run Whonix from a flash drive in some Internet cafe? And I would hope that timing attacks on an anonymous user would be unlikely, as most people are not big targets for that sort of thing. Anyway, as always, your interest is appreciated. We will see what the powers that be have to say about the deb package issue. |
|
I don't see any good reason why it would be impossible to run anything from a stick. All Linux distros support it, even Qubes installer is running Qubes from a stick and that is yet another level... But never tried myself, I just installed Qubes and use it every day. :) You will need to check it for yourself. |
|
Maybe the complexity? I don't know. But good question. |
|
@Kixunil First and foremost, Tails is much easier to setup. A newbie can, with relative low effort, create a usable Tails boot, portable and easy to encrypt.
Seems to me there is no comparison under this front. This brings, and is related to, another big advantage of Tails. It's very common for a newbie to install VB and Whonix on a very insecure host (classic Windows machine where he plays video games and watches porn). And feel secure just because he's using a virtual machine. Also, Virtual Box in itself is a big chunk of code that carries vulnerabilities. I can agree though, that for an advanced user, Whonix is more expressive. It's easier to expand and work with. But on the other hand, I would be very cautious promoting Whonix to newbies. The other situation that comes to my mind right now where Tails would be almost always better, is the coffee shop/Starbucks example. Tails is more convenient in those scenarios cause it picks different guard nodes each time, while Whonix would require tinkering a little bit with the Gateway to achieve the same. (Using the same guard from two different places, maybe in the same city, could be damaging).
In the end this. |
|
@PulpCattel thanks for in-depth explanation! Setting it up in Qubes was incredibly easy (literally just leaving a checkbox checked), so that's why I didn't expect a huge difference. Good to know, I'll be more careful recommending it. That being said, stripped-down live version of Qubes with Whonix would be a nice project. :) Back on topic: I will consider trying Tails to see exactly how the repositories are configured there to see if we can do something about it. But not until I resolve some other crucial issues with my repo. |
|
Yes, good explanation. The bottom line is that Tails gives a goof-proof easily transportable OS for quick and secure communications. There is nothing else like it right now. With regard to the repos, it only uses official Debian repos. Therefore, any program must meet the strict Debian standards. As I understand it, this helps with the security necessary in all aspects of Tails. The creator is not going to change that (he has said so), and there is no way around it. So we see our focus for a Debian-standard package of Wasabi must be to fit the Debian standard. At that point all problems just go away. |
|
@Kixunil, Happy New Year to you and all here. I thought it wise to check in and see if you had made any progress on the Debian package of Wasabi. Thanks. |
|
You may be forgetting the portable computer it must run on. A good portable computer is a lot of money. |
|
I assumed you already have a computer, so the additional storage cost + bandwidth should be around $50, I believe. Bitcoin doesn't need a supercomputer, many people are running it on Raspberry Pis (although I do think that's lower bound for performance). Of course it might mean having to actually buy a bit larger storage to get a good deal but then you can use the remaining space for other things. If you want to optimize it for low cost and usable performance, then small SSD + large HDD should work. |
@Kixunil then currently Wasabi might not at all be usable in your repo, even when a full node is connected, it is used for example block download & fee estimation, but it is NOT used for block filter generation / consensus verification.
@Kixunil Wasabi does not work with a pruned node. |
|
Yeah, it wouldn't be as good a in other apps but at least it'd not lead to fake coins being able to exist. |
|
@Kixunil, another forum discussed this issue. We are trying to configure a portable solution. It must be anonymous and it must be easy to deploy in a place such as an Internet cafe. This scenario must be kept in mind when thinking about the appropriate computer. Also, I am trying to find solutions that are useful for a greater audience base, including poorer folks who wish to practice safer and more private Internet dealings. With that said, any old portable computer would be useful because it is cheap and is battery powered. Sticking in the Tails USB drive will serve the needs of anyone and keep the trail away from the everyday personal computer. Also, it is more handy for travel. I point all this out to better help you and others know what is needed by the vast majority of users in the world. While someone may purchase a hardware wallet, we are limited by the ones who use Wasabi, as well as various other desirable features often missing in all of them. It makes no sense to invest in second-best, when one may have an old portable laying around. I trust I have explained clearly enough. Please feel free to ask if there is something unclear. Thank you. |
|
SUMMARY
While they may be combined, that was not the original questions. One may substitute for the other. |
|
Perhaps also:
:) |
|
Agreed. I go for it if it was recognized by Wasabi people. |
|
FYI, I created debian-cryptoanarchy/cryptoanarchy-deb-repo-builder#112 It'll probably take at least a month for me to have the time to do it but at least I have some idea of how to do it. |
|
By the way, regarding pruning, evidently PulpCattel does not agree with MaxHillebrand. The document at Tails + Bitcoin Core + Wasabi how-to article uses it. |
|
@KitchM I fail to see what that guide has to do with pruning. Can you please explain? |
|
From Guide we read:
That figure is more like >350GB now. |
|
@Kixunil I guess he refers to Max saying that Wasabi does not work with a pruned node. @KitchM |
|
@PulpCattel makes sense, thanks for clarifying! |
|
@PulpCattel, you made a big mistake. Probably because of shortsightedness, but still not a very good response. Sadly, you assumed incorrectly that:
Both are wrong. I have spent many hours working thru the various problems with the lack of clear communication in the documentation, the proprietary methodologies, the lack of clear responses and on testing in the real world. Further, I always stand ready to help with the documentation. It is fine if you wish to take such a position, as that is your business. However, that neither makes it helpful nor acceptable.. Further, your guide clearly shows the steps to take. If you did not want the pruning to be done, then you should not have put that in the guide. I fail to see your justification for you response concerning that. And just to be clear, I greatly appreciate Martin for the work being done. Those efforts are highly regarded and valued, if by no one else but myself. I am confident that he understands the very foundational necessity for an official DEB file and/or repo to make Wasabi work in a more anonymous environment, more suited to the real world of anonymous commerce. |
|
Running a full node Bitcoin Core requires an USB of at least 512 GB. 256 is just to small. Running Tails on a HDD/SDD doesn't work unless changing config and even if doing it properly the next update might make it crash. So best option when running Tails is always on an USB Now to the actual topic of running Wasabi on Tails. Well, its cumbersome. And a bit harder than it should have to be. Of course it would be nice running Wasabi from "Additional Software". Synaptic and/or APT should be working, but as far as I can say only DPKG works right now. Linux Mint use GDebi Package Installer. Tried it today and it works great in Mint. Unfortunately not available in Tails. As a side note, the Wasabi window in Mint was weird and not very user friendly. Couldn't fit it to the screen was one thing. The best Bitcoin software for Tails is of course Electrum. Its default. But the newer versions are available as AppImage and its just to download, move to Persistent and change Properties --> Permissions to Allow Execute. AppImage could very well be the way to go for Wasabi. Then there is another software I recently tested. Its the Monero Feather Wallet. Its awesome. Even as current beta. It works straight out of the box. Easiest program I ever had to use in Tails. Sent some Monero to it and then returned it to my hardware wallet. Worked great. I'm very impressed. If you guys want to do some epiq work you should copy Feather wallets approach. Take an USB, install Tails. Run it and download Feather. You will be amazed. Onion address to Feather wallet: |
|
Note that AppImage has a serious drawback of being hard to verify. Nothing beats repositories in this regard. |
|
Hmm, got tinking about this a bit. Tails is based on Debian. Maybe GDebi actually would work? Run in terminal Restart Tails and double check the gdebi is in "Additional software" Download the latest Wasabi from: Move the file to Persistent Open a terminal It should now be installed in Applications ---> Office Problem is the software will still be removed when closing Tails. So its back to the "Show hidden file" in /Home and copy the folder to Persistent and returning it back to /Home after restarting Tails again, before doing the gdebi for Wasabi again. So no win doing the gdebi instead of dpkg. Really wish Wasabi-x.x.x.x.deb would be accepted into apt-get. Unfortunately I don't know how/if a software is included there. Or maybe the AppImage or Feather wallet approach would be better. |
|
I'm stating the obvious, but just to be complete, a Bitcoin Core full node can be pruned and it can go as far as 4-5 GB (even Lightning Network works on pruned, e.g., clightning). Note that Wasabi can be downloaded as After that, the only thing necessary is to manage the It would, of course, be lovely to see Tails reserving to Wasabi the same treatment as Electrum (with a dedicated Persistent Storage option, being installed by default, etc...), but, apart from that, Wasabi is kinda as easy as it gets to run on Tails. |
|
Works as in "every single feature of clightning works". With something like 10GB you have 6-7k block to go before being stuck; if your LN node goes offline for 1 month and a half or something, the Bitcoin Core sync does not seem the biggest problem. |
|
Really? What if someone wants to open a channel with an old UTXO? Default prune height is 550M, not 10G. You could argue it's a mistake to keep the default but people will make it unless something changes it for them. |
True, that's unfortunate for us (and even tedious), but AFAIK it's mostly a problem for the counterparty (his
That's fair, you are definitely right that 550M is reckless, and I hope no one tells people to run prune for LN with such small values. |
|
For the curious, Christian Decker just answered a similar question on the Chat copied here for convenience, don't trust meC.:
Me:
C.:
Me:
C.:
|
|
Agree with the sentiment of not recommending it to random people. That's my approach to it too. |
|
@NotwhatIwanttotell , totally awesome research. Thank you very much. I, too, wish there was a simple way to have someone create the .deb file. |
|
@PulpCattel I agree that pruned is an option. I'm running it right now on my 256GB USB Tails so it must be pruned. It was your step-by-step instruction that made me do it in the first place. Thank you very much for that very good instruction. No way I could have figured that out myself. However pruned is not always, we all know this, the best way to run Bitcoin Core. Import Private Key is one of the features that doesn't work. So my plan is, when I feel the need/urge, to buy a 1 TB USB, install Tails and import the keys into a fully updated Bitcoin Core (Tails off-line during this operation). After imported into Core start sending small amounts into Wasabi. Waiting the week to ten days for them to go through and exchange in a reliable non-KYC/AML exchange for Monero. The Monero will then be sent to my Feather wallet in Tails. But at the moment I'm not comfortable to do this. First I don't know a way to get the forks safely into Tails. BCH actually starts to be valuable with BSV close behind. The BTG is of course small, but its still valuable. Every bit counts... Then there is the matter with Wasabi. I can copy/paste from Persistent to Home and back again. Its just that it makes me uncomfortable. I'm afraid I will miss something or accidentally delete something important. Yes I do have the words and password written down, but it still makes me uncomfortable. You all can laugh all you want at me, but I prefer to be 110% on this before executing. Too many people has f*cked up over the years. I don't want to be another on that list. If Wasabi gets a full working node that can be installed into Tails and don't have to copy/paste stuff, basically running the same way as Feathers I will be your customer. I also do think Coinomi is looking into getting a Tails or AppImage version. That could help with the forks. Maybe there are other multi-currency wallets that actually will work in Tails? Plan? I know I will be down 20% or more with the above plan, but I will still be ahead. When all is set and done its time to buy a house in the Philippines or Thailand... Maybe Elon has a cheap slot on his rocket to Mars? |
Damn straight! |
|
This discussion is now locked, as feature/enhancement requests are being moved to the Issues tab for further processing. Please use #9801 for future comments regarding this. |
Uh oh!
There was an error while loading. Please reload this page.
Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.
There is a frustrating problem when trying to satisfy the needs of Tails. It expects all applications to be in the Debian repos.
Describe the solution you'd like
The problems would all completely go away if the .deb package was in the repos. This includes Wasabi Wallet.
Describe alternatives you've considered
Attempts at installing the package manually fail to do what is necessary in creating a proper program/datastore arrangement to survive reboots in the expected manner. Without creating special scripts to run on boot, there is no way to solve the problems.
All reactions